It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:29 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
When I growd up in the '70's, Acid Rain was all the rage in rural NY causing all kinds of forest destruction and sterilizing of lakes. We all bought it. The Government experts were in near unanimous agreement, action must be taken, control must be seized, monies must be confiscated. Haste was the imperative and delay was not to be tolerated, better to do something now , thinking is a timewaster we just don't have the luxury to indulge in right now.

So they swarmed out from Centralized Command Control Center in DC across the nation testing coal stacks and slapping orange dayglo warning stickers like a teen decorating her locker. Huge expensive scrubbers were designed, built and installed and electric rates went up. Then they all held their breath {if only} to see if MAN for ONCE had responded in time to his folly.

But other news accumulated and bigger stories left little room for mirror checking, besides we could be sure the G-Men had things well in control....never did see the empirical data of cost = desired effect.

So I ran across this by chance today and besides being as convoluted a scientific paper , are they all this way?, as I have seen it actually makes the case for good beneficial effect of Sulphur Dioxide in the atmosphere over and over again , for flora and fauna.

World Health Organization authored the piece and I come away learning SO2 is a fertilizer and food cycle enhancer.

It fits the Co2 hyperventilation and I am thinking was conjured up a replacement as their first scapegoat lived and flourished before every ones eyes.

Well read it yourself, this crap has cost Americans Trillions of $$$ and is ever a LIE.

http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/p ... effso2.pdf


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:34 am 
Offline
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:10 pm
Posts: 21949
Location: Making clean, safe, reliable power for Wisconsin with atoms - now with 17% more!
As you guys know, I'm not a tree-hugging environmentalist and I work for a power-producing company, but I think that "acid rain" was bad for the environment. The changes in how coal-fired power plants (and other places) made to their emissions has helped change what could have been a death-knell for plants & animals in certain parts of the US.

What "we" have proven is that the environment is very, very resilient and if we recognize the damage we're doing (real damage, not imagined things like "global warming") and change how we do things, we can make a difference.

Now, for my advertisement - nuclear power has NEVER been accused of creating acid rain! Just sayin'. :wave:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
pronuclear wrote:
As you guys know, I'm not a tree-hugging environmentalist and I work for a power-producing company, but I think that "acid rain" was bad for the environment. The changes in how coal-fired power plants (and other places) made to their emissions has helped change what could have been a death-knell for plants & animals in certain parts of the US.

What "we" have proven is that the environment is very, very resilient and if we recognize the damage we're doing (real damage, not imagined things like "global warming") and change how we do things, we can make a difference.

Now, for my advertisement - nuclear power has NEVER been accused of creating acid rain! Just sayin'. :wave:


Sure if "acid rain" had not been a lie from the get go , but since it is , the plant life has suffered instead of benefited . There WAS no acid rain. Certainly not So2 being the culprit but that is where they forced the Coal plants to spend the loot to address the problem.

And I'll bet there are plenty of lies propagated about Nuclear, in fact I know it.

Now Co2 is the demon gas.

Seems to me they are trying to remove all the flora beneficient components of air . Could the population control freaks be that far ahead of us in their murderous plots?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
My understanding is that the sulfur dioxide was been transformed into sulfuric acid in the atmosphere .. thus the "acid" term in acid rain.

... and while sulfuric acid is used in fertilizers ... fertilizers that are good for farm crops are not good when they run into local water sources such streams and small lakes

Oh ... and ya missed the whole cfc's/Ozone hoax that was all the rave in the 90's


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Walkntall wrote:
My understanding is that the sulfur dioxide was been transformed into sulfuric acid in the atmosphere .. thus the "acid" term in acid rain.

... and while sulfuric acid is used in fertilizers ... fertilizers that are good for farm crops are not good when they run into local water sources such streams and small lakes

Oh ... and ya missed the whole cfc's/Ozone hoax that was all the rave in the 90's


Well that is what they told us {Government Experts} but was any of it true?

Now that we know what they are up to with Co2 I doubt absolutely everything they say.

Yeah then it was ozone , then cow farts , then we needed ethanol in gas, then etc...

All demonstrably disproven propaganda lies nudging us toward environmental collapse is what I am seeing as a pattern.

Your mileage may vary.

After further research , I am right. Fits the environmental scammers template to a T.


Debunk House
Geology and Geophysics vs Enviromarxism
« A Gaping Hole in the Ozone Hole…
Is the IPCC “House of Cards” about to collapse? »
The Acid Rain Scam

Acid rain became an “issue” in 1980 when Congress passed the Acid Deposition Act. After a ten year study, National Acidic Precipitation Assessment Program reported that there wasn’t much of a problem with acid rain. The first report was rejected and Congress went ahead and amended the Clean Air Act to mandate SO2 and NOx emissions. These emissions have been substantially reduced at a cost of several billion dollars per year. Chump change relative to the potential costs of Kyoto/Copenhagen schemes.

According to the EPA the Acid Rain Program has made significant progress…

Air Quality: Emission reductions achieved under the ARP have led to improvements in air quality with significant benefits to human health.

Between 1989-1991 and 2006-2008 average ambient sulfate concentrations have decreased by 38 percent in the Mid-Atlantic, 44 percent in the Midwest, 43 percent in the Northeast, and 28 percent in the Southeast.



Figure 1: Trends in Electricity Generation, Fossil Energy Use, Prices, and Emissions from the Electric Power Industry, 1990-2008

But… The reduction of SO2 and NOx emissions has had no clear affect on the pH of rainwater. Here’s a link to an interactive map of the National Atmospheric Deposition Program…

National Atmospheric Deposition Program Interactive Map

Click on a station, select “Trend Plots”, then select “Field pH” or “Lab pH” and look at the actual data.

In some parts of the country, the pH is stable, in some parts it’s gently falling, in other parts it’s gently rising. Most stations exhibit little or no change in slope over the measurement period, which in many cases goes back to the late 1970′s.

I downloaded all of the annual data from the National Atmospheric Deposition Program and calculated an annual average rainwater pH for the USA…

Annual Average Rainwater pH (USA) 1978-2008

Rainwater was not becoming more acidic prior to the initiation of the EPA’s Acid Rain Program in 1990. The pH of rainwater was actually rising (becoming less acidic) prior to the EPA’s efforts to fight acid rain. The really crazy thing is that the pH has been rising more slowly since the EPA started to fight acid rain!

Rain is supposed to be acidic. The pH of rain in a pristine environment, free from pollution (including volcanoes) is normally about 5.6. Most of the lakes which were showcased as acid rain victims were naturally acidic and had been acidic since well before mankind ever burned his first lump of coal.

Rather than being a global problem, anthropogenic acid rain was a localized problem in parts of Northern Europe which was relatively easily fixed.

The costs of reducing SO2 and NOx emissions haven’t been that awful… And the reductions did lead to some beneficial incremental environmental effects… But… No acid rain crisis ever existed.

Addendum

In response to Professor Gutow’s comment: I downloaded a single station from upstate NY with data back to 1979, NY08 Aurora Research Farm…

The pH was already increasing before the EPA initiated its Acid Rain Program (ARP)…

Even more significantly, the SO4 concentration was already in decline. Based on the pre-1990 trend, SO4 would have declined to its current level without ARP, albeit 5 years later…

About these ads
Like Loading...

This entry was posted on February 23, 2010 at 15:26 and is filed under Junk Science and Enviromarxism. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
8 Responses to “The Acid Rain Scam”

Fish Says:
February 24, 2010 at 15:13 | Reply

As a geophysicist, I really enjoy reading your site. Your data analysis is concise and easy to understand. Have you seen the TED 2010 video of Bill Gates on climate change, his ‘equations’ make my head want to explode.
David Middleton Says:
February 26, 2010 at 06:16 | Reply

I haven’t seen it… I’ll have to check it out. Although, my head will explode if I hear “Stefan-Boltzmann” many more times. I’ll bet that I’ve read hundreds of blog posts and articles in which some physicist has said that Stefan-Boltzmann or some other radiative forcing equation proves that CO2 is driving climate change… Yet all of the observational data prior to about 1980 proves that CO2 can’t drive climate change.

I haven’t done the math, but wouldn’t the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation say that the rising level of atmospheric CO2 since 1980 should be causing rain to become more acidic?

The “funny” thing about equations, is that mathematically sound ones can still yield the wrong answer.

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen dry holes drilled on very sound geophysical models that failed to properly integrate the geology.
Global Warming, er, Climate Disruption, and My Kid « NooneOfAnyImport's Blog Says:
October 21, 2010 at 16:34 | Reply

[...] and environmentalism generally. We talked about how, when I was a kid, I was scared of acid rain killing all our trees and plants and [...]
Jonathan Gutow Says:
January 15, 2012 at 21:47 | Reply

If you are going to make statements suggesting that the trend of increasing pH decelerated after 1990, you should look at the data first. I chose a random site in NY. Prior to 1990 the pH was oscillating between 4.1 and 4.2 (maybe trending slightly upwards). After 1990 it began to trend significantly upwards. In 2010 (last available data) the pH was about 4.9. This single example clearly contradicts your statement. Note also that it is inappropriate to look at the whole US. The meaningful data is for locations downwind of coal fired power plants, which were the main emitters of NOx and SO2 gases. Thus almost all the acid deposition occurs in places located in the Northeast US.

Go to http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/maps/Default.aspx
select: NTN, Concentration, Lab pH (or Field pH) and compare 1994 to 2009 for a clear picture of what has happened and where the acid deposition occurs.
David Middleton Says:
January 17, 2012 at 13:57 | Reply

Professor Gutow,

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my blog post.

How does a single station refute the average of all of the stations?

Even in your example, the pH was already rising before the initiation of the EPA’s Acid Rain Program in 1990. (See addendum).
Jonathan Gutow Says:
January 17, 2012 at 16:49

You are missing the point about how acid rain is distributed. Acid rain occurs when acid forming compounds such as NOx and SO2 mix with water in the clouds to form acidic rain drops. This only occurs in locations where NOx and SO2 are produced upwind (to the west in general) of the location of the precipitation. Most coal fired power plants (the major source of SO2) are located in the Midwest. This means that acid rain caused by them occurs mostly in New York and the Mid Atlantic states which are east of the power plants. If you look at the maps provided of the distribution of acid deposition, you will see that the acidity of the rain began to reduce significantly in these regions after the laws were changed.
By averaging over the whole US you are masking the trends in the regions of the country that are affected by NOx and SO2 emissions.
Patrick Jak (netherlands) Says:
March 3, 2013 at 02:56 | Reply

Maybe a small detail. PH is of course a logarithmic scale…if you would rework the data to (milli)moles H+ per litre you would find that the change in H+ concentration after 1990 is an order of magnitude smaller than the change before 1990.
Rosie Says:
April 13, 2013 at 10:50 | Reply

It’s a pity you don’t have a donate button! I’d definitely donate to this outstanding blog! I suppose for now i’ll settle for bookmarking and adding your RSS feed to my Google account.

I look forward to new updates and will share this site with my Facebook group.
Talk soon!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:57 pm 
Offline
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:50 am
Posts: 54996
Location: (M) California - God Bless America!
Walkntall wrote:
My understanding is that the sulfur dioxide was been transformed into sulfuric acid in the atmosphere .. thus the "acid" term in acid rain.

... and while sulfuric acid is used in fertilizers ... fertilizers that are good for farm crops are not good when they run into local water sources such streams and small lakes

Oh ... and ya missed the whole cfc's/Ozone hoax that was all the rave in the 90's

I had a solution for that:

Every time you use a CFC propelled deodorant, you have to spend three hours arc-welding. It wasn't a popular idea. :misery:

I really think the hippies just wanted everyone to stop using deodorant.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:20 am
Posts: 22892
Location: Occupying only 4 of the 11 dimensions
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.


Which further proves the point of vegetation not being negatively affected by So2.

Ummmm, Isn't Hawaii surrounded by salt water also?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:20 am
Posts: 22892
Location: Occupying only 4 of the 11 dimensions
theoldway wrote:
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.


Which further proves the point of vegetation not being negatively affected by So2.

Ummmm, Isn't Hawaii surrounded by salt water also?


Right.

Salt spray from the ocean, PLUS the acid in the rain, makes for rust on top of rust on top of more rust.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:59 am
Posts: 9273
Location: I don't give a shit.
I have always known that it was BS.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:30 am
Posts: 5435
Location: Still on my tractor O=o
Starman wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.


Which further proves the point of vegetation not being negatively affected by So2.

Ummmm, Isn't Hawaii surrounded by salt water also?


Right.

Salt spray from the ocean, PLUS the acid in the rain, makes for rust on top of rust on top of more rust.


What about your drinking water? Does sulfur leach into the groundwater and give it a funky taste and smell like rotten eggs?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:20 am
Posts: 22892
Location: Occupying only 4 of the 11 dimensions
syzygy wrote:
Starman wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.


Which further proves the point of vegetation not being negatively affected by So2.

Ummmm, Isn't Hawaii surrounded by salt water also?


Right.

Salt spray from the ocean, PLUS the acid in the rain, makes for rust on top of rust on top of more rust.


What about your drinking water? Does sulfur leach into the groundwater and give it a funky taste and smell like rotten eggs?


The acid in the drinking water has no taste. The water in Hilo quite good, actually. It's not enough acid to taste or to give you any problems with digestion. And there's no smell.

But the acid in the rain is enough not only to induce corrosion in metals, it etches concrete. you have to see this to believe it- a slab poured 10 years ago, nice and smooth when it was new, is now all rough and grainy, the aggregate exposed. This happens in many places, but here it happens very fast.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
theoldway wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
My understanding is that the sulfur dioxide was been transformed into sulfuric acid in the atmosphere .. thus the "acid" term in acid rain.

... and while sulfuric acid is used in fertilizers ... fertilizers that are good for farm crops are not good when they run into local water sources such streams and small lakes

Oh ... and ya missed the whole cfc's/Ozone hoax that was all the rave in the 90's


Well that is what they told us {Government Experts} but was any of it true?

Now that we know what they are up to with Co2 I doubt absolutely everything they say.

Yeah then it was ozone , then cow farts , then we needed ethanol in gas, then etc...

All demonstrably disproven propaganda lies nudging us toward environmental collapse is what I am seeing as a pattern.

Your mileage may vary.

After further research , I am right. Fits the environmental scammers template to a T.

That would make sense that the template was copied by the enviro-nazis.

My take on this is that acid rain was destroying lakes and the solution of clamping down on very tall coal fired smokestacks and the aerosol (pollutants) they were emitting.
The evidence is there to support that this was real.
I would be in agreement that the issue was overblown.

cfc's/ozone layer and Co2/global warming lack the same hard evidence ... but the campaigns are modeled after the success of the acid rain campaign.

There is little doubt that the rivers, lakes and air in North America is cleaner now than when we were youngsters and for the most part the clean up of our environment started long before governments got involved or the creation of the EPA.


Last edited by Walkntall on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:50 am 
Offline
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:10 pm
Posts: 21949
Location: Making clean, safe, reliable power for Wisconsin with atoms - now with 17% more!
Og wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
My understanding is that the sulfur dioxide was been transformed into sulfuric acid in the atmosphere .. thus the "acid" term in acid rain.

... and while sulfuric acid is used in fertilizers ... fertilizers that are good for farm crops are not good when they run into local water sources such streams and small lakes

Oh ... and ya missed the whole cfc's/Ozone hoax that was all the rave in the 90's

I had a solution for that:

Every time you use a CFC propelled deodorant, you have to spend three hours arc-welding. It wasn't a popular idea. :misery:

I really think the hippies just wanted everyone to stop using deodorant.


Many years ago Drew Carey used to do a routine where he said that since he was from Cleveland, he would stand outside & spray aerosol cans into the air to try & get a hole over his house to warm things up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
pronuclear wrote:
As you guys know, I'm not a tree-hugging environmentalist and I work for a power-producing company, but I think that "acid rain" was bad for the environment. The changes in how coal-fired power plants (and other places) made to their emissions has helped change what could have been a death-knell for plants & animals in certain parts of the US.

What "we" have proven is that the environment is very, very resilient and if we recognize the damage we're doing (real damage, not imagined things like "global warming") and change how we do things, we can make a difference.

Now, for my advertisement - nuclear power has NEVER been accused of creating acid rain! Just sayin'. :wave:

Should we make a list of what nuclear power has been accused of ? :laugh:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was. Exactly like Co2 scam. Pounded into our heads with no substantive pushback or analysis of empirical data and factual studies.

DDT=false
Acid Rain=false
Overpopulation=false
2nd hand smoke=false
Marijuana/hemp propaganda=false
Co2 GW =false
Eggs bad=false
Global cooling=false
Genetic crops bad= probably false
Nuclear Power bad=false
Deforestation=false
Blacks make better music=false
Ozone layer disappearing=false
Ice caps melting/ planetary flooding=false
Free markets bad=false

Every time these "new" environmental fad of the day crops up , the consensus of dire results and immediate Centralized action are forecasted as the only option...everytime.

RAIN is always ACIDIC . but when you say "ACID RAIN" now that sounds sinister. manmade and intolerable. But the evidence I am reading shows no correlation at all to the attributed ill effects.

It is a WAR on Freedom waged for a century by tag team tyrants and their minions.

It is a WAR on MAN.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:12 pm 
Offline
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:50 am
Posts: 54996
Location: (M) California - God Bless America!
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.

There are some epoxy linings that can be applied, even as a retrofit. The only problem is that a water temp over 140 can void the warranty, and any hot work is just plain out.

If you like your showers in the 125-130 range (hotel hot) it might be a good solution for you. https://www.hawaiipiperestoration.com/

We used this in a hotel that was plumbed with 20-year-old Type-M copper. It went from being a sprinkler to being mostly dry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Og wrote:
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.

There are some epoxy linings that can be applied, even as a retrofit. The only problem is that a water temp over 140 can void the warranty, and any hot work is just plain out.

If you like your showers in the 125-130 range (hotel hot) it might be a good solution for you. https://www.hawaiipiperestoration.com/

We used this in a hotel that was plumbed with 20-year-old Type-M copper. It went from being a sprinkler to being mostly dry.


Just forget about the old pipes and reroute new PVC and Cpvc from the attic drill down through the top plate of the walls.

I'll come and do it for a reasonable fee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:20 am
Posts: 22892
Location: Occupying only 4 of the 11 dimensions
Og wrote:
Starman wrote:
You want to experience acid rain? Come to the Big Island.

The volcano has been pumping out sulfur for 30 years, now. Once exposed to air, SO2 forms; when mixed with moisture, it then forms H2SO4, sulfuric acid.

The flora here had not suffered. This is unsurprising, as volcanoes erupting is why Hawaii exists in the first place. But it raises havoc with anything made out of metal, particularly steel. The Big Island is the corrosion capital of the world. You can spend your whole life scraping rust and painting.

The water supply on the east side of the island is all rain-runoff, and it all has a pH of way under 7.0. The pipes in my (63 YO) house are steel; and they are rusting from the inside out. Not a damn thing I can do about it.

There are some epoxy linings that can be applied, even as a retrofit. The only problem is that a water temp over 140 can void the warranty, and any hot work is just plain out.

If you like your showers in the 125-130 range (hotel hot) it might be a good solution for you. https://www.hawaiipiperestoration.com/

We used this in a hotel that was plumbed with 20-year-old Type-M copper. It went from being a sprinkler to being mostly dry.


Too late, I'm afraid. I have flakes of rust coming loose and jamming the faucet valves.

When I installed my new solar water-heater some years ago, I used all copper pipes. Cu stands up to the acid much better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


I ain't saying I want to go back to the days of thick black smoke belching from a hundred smokestacks like tires being burned .

The point is So2 is not particulate {I think} but actually a useful byproduct of combustion, sulfuric acid is a vital chemical in many industrial processes and is also produced by nature as Starman attests.

I'd rather these issues be addresssed in a civil way between affected parties without the Government Progressive ideological egghead bureaucrats making determinations that cost a fortune and fail to even ameliorate the original problem , real or imagined. Like Co2 being a pollutant as a basis for massive Governmental action , a LIE as a catalyst for action results in greater error.

I also found that Canada Oh Canada during the 1970's complained constantly about USA! USA! USA! crossborder pollution , and got us to take action yet never installed a single scrubber on their own coal plants but were happy to sell us juice as the shuttered USA! plants electricity required replacing.

Kind of like China/India today.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:03 pm 
Offline
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:10 pm
Posts: 21949
Location: Making clean, safe, reliable power for Wisconsin with atoms - now with 17% more!
theoldway wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


I ain't saying I want to go back to the days of thick black smoke belching from a hundred smokestacks like tires being burned .

The point is So2 is not particulate {I think} but actually a useful byproduct of combustion, sulfuric acid is a vital chemical in many industrial processes and is also produced by nature as Starman attests.

I'd rather these issues be addresssed in a civil way between affected parties without the Government Progressive ideological egghead bureaucrats making determinations that cost a fortune and fail to even ameliorate the original problem , real or imagined. Like Co2 being a pollutant as a basis for massive Governmental action , a LIE as a catalyst for action results in greater error.

I also found that Canada Oh Canada during the 1970's complained constantly about USA! USA! USA! crossborder pollution , and got us to take action yet never installed a single scrubber on their own coal plants but were happy to sell us juice as the shuttered USA! plants electricity required replacing.

Kind of like China/India today.


The Canuks were selling us power from their CANDU reactors mostly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
pronuclear wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


I ain't saying I want to go back to the days of thick black smoke belching from a hundred smokestacks like tires being burned .

The point is So2 is not particulate {I think} but actually a useful byproduct of combustion, sulfuric acid is a vital chemical in many industrial processes and is also produced by nature as Starman attests.

I'd rather these issues be addresssed in a civil way between affected parties without the Government Progressive ideological egghead bureaucrats making determinations that cost a fortune and fail to even ameliorate the original problem , real or imagined. Like Co2 being a pollutant as a basis for massive Governmental action , a LIE as a catalyst for action results in greater error.

I also found that Canada Oh Canada during the 1970's complained constantly about USA! USA! USA! crossborder pollution , and got us to take action yet never installed a single scrubber on their own coal plants but were happy to sell us juice as the shuttered USA! plants electricity required replacing.

Kind of like China/India today.


The Canuks were selling us power from their CANDU reactors mostly.


That's good. But did they install scrubbers while complaining about ours, well no. Like today USA! coal plants are BEING SHUT DOWN whlie China is opening a new dirty one every 10 days.

This is not an academic discussion , our grid is taxed {literally} too much already.

Hey, Nuc , your expertise needed, Do you think DC current is more efficient as Edison thought , but not over long distances ? As in small localized producers -users in a , let's say , half mile radius?

I do.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:30 am
Posts: 5435
Location: Still on my tractor O=o
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


There is a small, mountain town near me by the Cherokee National Forest called Copperhill. It was the home of a copper smelting plant since before the Civil War. One of the by-products of producing copper was sulfuric acid which was released into the atmosphere and river for years there. Remembering going there as a child, the place for miles around looked like a bombed out war zone. Exposed and eroded red clay hills with hardly any vegetation and what few trees there were, were stunted with most no more than head high and pines.

The nearby Ocoee river (home of the '96 Olympics white water kayaking events) was void of any life. (A ranger friend of mine said that aquatic life was making a come back now but the TVA did an experimental "flushing" of the sediment at one of their dams and the resulting silting set that back quite a bit.)

Forced to clean up their act back in the late '60s, I think, the copper company found out that they could make more money producing sulfuric acid rather than copper and so went to that and eventually out of business. A reclamation of the land has been going on for many years now and it has really produced quite a dramatic change--for the the better.

So, yes, 'Tall, you are absolutely correct that sulfuric acid by and large is ultimately detrimental to the environment especially in high concentrations. THAT I've seen with my own eyes. And, as a child seeing it firsthand, I recall thinking how glad I was that it was NIMBY.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
theoldway wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


I ain't saying I want to go back to the days of thick black smoke belching from a hundred smokestacks like tires being burned .

The point is So2 is not particulate {I think} but actually a useful byproduct of combustion, sulfuric acid is a vital chemical in many industrial processes and is also produced by nature as Starman attests.

I'd rather these issues be addresssed in a civil way between affected parties without the Government Progressive ideological egghead bureaucrats making determinations that cost a fortune and fail to even ameliorate the original problem , real or imagined. Like Co2 being a pollutant as a basis for massive Governmental action , a LIE as a catalyst for action results in greater error.

I also found that Canada Oh Canada during the 1970's complained constantly about USA! USA! USA! crossborder pollution , and got us to take action yet never installed a single scrubber on their own coal plants but were happy to sell us juice as the shuttered USA! plants electricity required replacing.

Kind of like China/India today.

Ah yes ... I remember the hypocrisy well .... Kudo's for pointing that out.

Just keep in mind that this battle was in central Canada or more specific the Laurentian elites (we call them) and their cottage country.

I can give ya some solace on that, in letting ya know that they (like the mainstream Liberal media - to - university professors) ... don't matter anymore in Canada as the West has taken control of the country and is now in the process of westernizing it.

The best part is ... they don't understand why they are not important anymore.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 7985
Location: oot and aboot
syzygy wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


There is a small, mountain town near me by the Cherokee National Forest called Copperhill. It was the home of a copper smelting plant since before the Civil War. One of the by-products of producing copper was sulfuric acid which was released into the atmosphere and river for years there. Remembering going there as a child, the place for miles around looked like a bombed out war zone. Exposed and eroded red clay hills with hardly any vegetation and what few trees there were, were stunted with most no more than head high and pines.

The nearby Ocoee river (home of the '96 Olympics white water kayaking events) was void of any life. (A ranger friend of mine said that aquatic life was making a come back now but the TVA did an experimental "flushing" of the sediment at one of their dams and the resulting silting set that back quite a bit.)

Forced to clean up their act back in the late '60s, I think, the copper company found out that they could make more money producing sulfuric acid rather than copper and so went to that and eventually out of business. A reclamation of the land has been going on for many years now and it has really produced quite a dramatic change--for the the better.

So, yes, 'Tall, you are absolutely correct that sulfuric acid by and large is ultimately detrimental to the environment especially in high concentrations. THAT I've seen with my own eyes. And, as a child seeing it firsthand, I recall thinking how glad I was that it was NIMBY.

Excellent contribution to the thread.

A 1st hand account of reality and not some boring science article to counter some other boring science article.

And while it can be argued that sulfuric acid is a natural element ... so is water ... and to much of that is not good for plant life as well.

Ask anyone that grows flowers about the right PH level ..

.. (and then be prepared to be yapped at for the next few hours about what appears to be the most exciting topic on the planet ... frak me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 pm
Posts: 14815
Location: The origin of the Super Derecho.
Walkntall wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Walkntall wrote:
theoldway wrote:
Look at how many of us ^ me included just assumed "acid rain" was indeed a manmade phenomenom that was killing forests and lakes because they told us it was.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .. but no one is entitled to their own facts.

And the fact is when the coal fired plants used short smokestacks the acidic and other pollution (aerosols) was a very observable local enviromental problem .. as well as a local human health problem

When they built the taller stacks the local problems all but disappeared ... thus sending the aerosols further downwind.

Aerosols don't remain in the atmosphere for very long and do return to Earth .. yes in a more diluted form .. but now they're landing in someone else's backyard

And with it their favorite local fishing/swimming hole in a small lake that struggles with its own level of balance in acidity ... which now is put out of its natural balance.

While the study in your link does show that the "acid rain" phenomenon was overblown ... (and I agree with that) ... at the same time it gloss's over the above facts.


There is a small, mountain town near me by the Cherokee National Forest called Copperhill. It was the home of a copper smelting plant since before the Civil War. One of the by-products of producing copper was sulfuric acid which was released into the atmosphere and river for years there. Remembering going there as a child, the place for miles around looked like a bombed out war zone. Exposed and eroded red clay hills with hardly any vegetation and what few trees there were, were stunted with most no more than head high and pines.

The nearby Ocoee river (home of the '96 Olympics white water kayaking events) was void of any life. (A ranger friend of mine said that aquatic life was making a come back now but the TVA did an experimental "flushing" of the sediment at one of their dams and the resulting silting set that back quite a bit.)

Forced to clean up their act back in the late '60s, I think, the copper company found out that they could make more money producing sulfuric acid rather than copper and so went to that and eventually out of business. A reclamation of the land has been going on for many years now and it has really produced quite a dramatic change--for the the better.

So, yes, 'Tall, you are absolutely correct that sulfuric acid by and large is ultimately detrimental to the environment especially in high concentrations. THAT I've seen with my own eyes. And, as a child seeing it firsthand, I recall thinking how glad I was that it was NIMBY.

Excellent contribution to the thread.

A 1st hand account of reality and not some boring science article to counter some other boring science article.

And while it can be argued that sulfuric acid is a natural element ... so is water ... and to much of that is not good for plant life as well.

Ask anyone that grows flowers about the right PH level ..

.. (and then be prepared to be yapped at for the next few hours about what appears to be the most exciting topic on the planet ... frak me)


Our Progressive Politicians get all worried here in Austin And San Antonio on certain days to keep the air at a "healthy" level several times a year with emphasis on not fueling up until the evening and don't cut your lawn today foolishness while mexico burns huge swathes of land for sugar cane production blown north by the prevailing winds to the point you can see and smell it.

Otherwise the Feds will put the city in a non compliance category with a bunch of even stiffer regs. to contend with , completely ignoring trans border pollutionalization.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group